January 24, 2022

Tutti Taygerly - Make Space to Lead

My guest this week is Tutti Taygerly, returning to the show for a second time. Tutti is an executive leadership coach and professional speaker. She supports CEOs and tech leaders to embrace their unique leadership style to achieve professional impact. She works closely with women, people of color, and immigrants and has a particular love for “difficult” people. Previously she was a design leader at design firms, startups, and large companies including Disney and Facebook. She has written for Business Insider and Fast Company and in this episode she talks about her new book Make Space to Lead that shows high achievers how to reframe our relationship to work.



Transcript

Note: This transcript is machine-generated and may contain some errors.

Andy Polaine 00:09

Hi, welcome to Power of Ten. A podcast about design operating at many levels zooming out from thoughtful detail through to organisational transformation, on on to changes in society and the world. My name is Andy Polaine. I’m a design and innovation consultant, design leadership coach, educator and writer. My guest today is making her second appearance on Power of Ten. It’s Tutti Taygerly, welcome Tutti.

Tutti Taygerly 00:32

Thank you, Andy, excited to be on.

Andy Polaine 00:35

Tutti is an executive leadership coach and professional speaker for those of you who haven’t heard her in the last time. She supports CEOs and tech leaders to embrace their unique leadership style to achieve professional impact. She works closely with women, people of colour and immigrants and has a particular love for difficult in air quotes people. Previously, she was the design leader at design firms, startups and large companies, including Disney and Facebook. She’s written for Business Insider and Fast Company. And she’s just written a new book called Make Space to Lead that shows high achievers how to reframe our relationship to work today. Welcome. Thank you. So the last time we spoke was a while ago, we were just saying kind of near the beginning of this pandemic, actually, I think it was the beginning of last year, or spring last year. So you’ve been on you’ve been on quite a personal journey, it seems in that time, what do you been up to since the last time I spoke?

Tutti Taygerly 01:27

Ah, so much. I think I think the last time we spoke, I was in the middle of Coach Training through the coactive Institute. And since then, I think that I’ve stepped in a feeling really comfortable as an entrepreneur with hate to use this word, but with a portfolio of work from supporting CEOs of startups, leaders, and tech companies, designers on non designers in one on one coaching, running group programmes running my first in person retreat, which was beautiful, it was about a month ago to actually work with a group of women in person. And then for a lot of this last year, I’ve been writing, hence this book coming out a lot of the thinking and framing and I would say sharpening of the different messages that I’ve been going through myself and working with people on coming out in the book.

Andy Polaine 02:28

So I’ve got a question of if you’ve been busy.

Tutti Taygerly 02:31

Andy, Andy, Andy. So I think they say that we we teach what we most need to learn. I’ve been working with two separate book coaches over this year in writing the book. And this is what happens in our sessions. They always start with how busy Have you been how packed has been your schedule, and is actually the second book coach who basically gave me a very inspired tip, which is to only right when I’m in flow. And I find that that happens the most, if I start out the morning surfing, so if I start out the morning, out in the ocean surfing, relax. When I come back, all I want to do is right. So I am busy, but it’s a state of being I would say not busy. I’m actively in flow, creating producing a lot of things. And yes, I am busy a lot too.

Andy Polaine 03:27

Yeah. Okay. As you know, it was a you know, facetious question because obviously, this is one of the things you’re talking about is making space and actually getting away from the busyness and, you know, I had a little kind of European chuckle at there was a line in the book where he said, You know, it’s only when we take a longer vacation of a week or preferably two or three, which for Europeans is a short, you know, three weeks is a short vacation…

Tutti Taygerly 03:49

right? Absolutely. It’s very American to be out for days. That’s my vacation.

Andy Polaine 03:55

Yeah, yeah. So you know, it’s incredible how that kind of it’s getting shorter and shorter is actually happening in Australia, koala Australia used to be quite good on that. And it’s, it’s now I think, one of the nations who have kind of the least kind of vacation America still tops the list. You know, you talked about surfing a lot actually, in your book is a I got the feeling that there was a lot of thinking around the book. Whilst you were surfing I’m not thinking I don’t know if that’s true. A lot of what I would call the sort of the stewing you know, the sort of I think writing a book or writing anything actually is a large part of kind of, for me, I call it stewing talk to an Italian the other day who said yeah, it’s a it’s a minestrone, right, you know, it’s one of those things you have to kind of let it gradually cook to really get out the flavours but I think it’s one of the things that you know, to make sense of it. So how much was inspired by surfing because you even have an acronym in there to

Tutti Taygerly 04:47

idea I do have an acronym to remember the state of being by surf su RF. But to your question, I remember when when I worked actively as a design leader making products I talked a lot about gestation time, which is the same thing, the stewing time this minestrone time. And I don’t even think it’s for for writing, I think it’s for for everything we do whatever thing we’re trying to make create problem solve. And absolutely I, I do that when I surf, not necessarily in the active part of paddling, going for a wave, riding the wave, but in a lot of the sitting. I think many people think that surfing is a very active sport, because when you see it, you see people up and riding the wave and going down the line. But the reality is you spend a lot of time sitting, spend a lot of time sitting, floating, bobbing, watching, watching the horizon to see when the next set is going to come. And that is very conducive for introspection. And to your point around the around what I call gestation, it’s, you let an idea sit with you overnight for a couple days when when you’re in the shower, when you’re out walking, or for me after when I’m out surfing, that’s when something pops and then you know what to do next, you know, you get an insight, you get something to to unstick you and show you the path forward.

Andy Polaine 06:21

Yeah, I think there was a, I think Adam Grant, there was a sort of thing that he had written a little while he probably posted it too. But so it said it was one of the things that I tweeted his kind of went around and about this idea of, you know, downtime, or is not wasted time. And this idea. And I really find that, you know, if you’re really really busy, you just don’t have kind of time to think and my belief is not be interested in seeing. So you coach some of these people, I have a kind of belief that I think CEOs should be the least busy people in the organisation because their decisions carry often the greatest weight, and therefore they should have some time to kind of think about those things. And the opposite is usually the case, right? I mean, I’ve had plenty of situations where someone said, Well, okay, yeah, we’ve got 15 minutes for the CEO to present this thing for you know, and it’s some really kind of important thing or millions of dollars. And I think, you know, who thinks they can make a decision like that in 15 minutes without some reflection and some time? What’s your view on this? Because you, you coach CEOs, right? Especially startups?

Tutti Taygerly 07:19

I do I do. So two perspectives on this. And this is this is related to zooming up and down, as well. My guess is that for some of the CEOs that I coach, they have different perspectives on a problem. So if it is a problem that most of the time, their teams, the people who work for them can handle them at some points in time, 15 minutes is, is enough, because they built up the context of it over time they understand it, especially most of the CEOs, I coach, our founders, co founders, which means they are deeply passionately embedded in the space of their company. So in a way they understand it, and have been with the ideas and concepts longer than anyone else. So with that, I’d say for some of these more zoomed down decisions. 15 minutes, I think is enough. And all of these CEOs still struggle with what is the day to day firefighting crisis? And then how do you zoom out and make space make time to look at what is long term out, and long term can be long term can be six months, it can be 235 years. And for that, I believe they need the time and the space. My cat is just on my lap. So you might hear her her

Andy Polaine 08:46

cat is making making space they were fighting earlier, too. So if anyone hears that in the background, I find it quite relaxing. And it’s one of those things you could just going to put on. Just let me sign up for a second let people record

Tutti Taygerly 08:57

it. What’s the vibration of her on my lap like that is another thing that reminds me to slow down and make space because I’ve got a pet my cat?

Andy Polaine 09:05

Yeah, cats aren’t particularly hectic animals, although they’re quite soothing. So you know, there’s lots we could talk about around your book, I can you’ve caught it make space to lead. And you’re very honest and open in your own story. It’s kind of leading there. And it sort of runs all the way through of your kind of own experience. And you know, you’re very honest about this, this relationship between what you call your achievement monster, and finding somehow the other side of it, but working in a culture in an environment where everyone’s meant to have an achievement monster will be one. And, you know, hopefully, if we’re doing it right, mine’s better than yours. And all that stuff is sort of hyper competitive. And I’ve got a bunch of questions around here. But what point did you feel like you know, here’s something I think I can kind of share and I can write about what was there a kind of triggered to this or was it something that improved over time?

Tutti Taygerly 09:56

So I think the biggest trigger for writing externally about this was to really capture and better understand my own process. A lot of researchers talk a lot about research is actually me research trying to understand more of our own personal growth and journey. And while I’ve always journaled, I had not publicly written and blogged. And that’s something that I started doing. When I left the corporate world, I think I wrote my first public blog, the month where I stopped working at Facebook, my last corporate job. Yeah. And for me, that was never intended to be a book or anything like that. It was more, hey, this is a journey that I’m going through. I found these messages have resonated with a lot of my peers, especially many design leaders during a performance review season or trying to have more of a say in the roadmap, we’ll put our hands up and be like, why are we doing this? Why are we putting so much of our hearts and souls into it? I talked to a lot of people feeling very overwhelmed and overworked. And this is even in the years pre COVID. So there was something about it, where I wanted to write to capture my journey and to share it with other people. And as we both know, Brene Brown talks about this catharsis vulnerability, of sharing of making a connection. And I mean, that was the soup all together that had me start writing a blog weekly. For me, it didn’t start as confessional it started as sharing my learnings along the process. And only after doing that, for about two and a half, some years was there. Maybe after a year, maybe there was more of a point of view, there was a feedback loop, There were articles that resonated more with people and articles that were not read. So it was all an iterative feedback loop for experimentation. So while it started for me purely and selfishly, it became this way for me to connect with many, many people. And many people come in and find me through my writing right now.

Andy Polaine 12:09

Yeah, I call that sort of poking the hornet’s nest, and you’ve put some articles out there. And sometimes nothing happens in another time. Often, it’s the things that, you know, a little bit throw away, almost, you know, what I call brain farts? You know, they’re just a little thing. I think, well, that was kind of interesting might have been something, a turn of phrase that came up in coaching as a response to someone and I kind of post it. And those ones suddenly kind of call us a lot of sort of hubbub in both directions in sometimes kind of positive and negative.

Tutti Taygerly 12:36

Absolutely.

Andy Polaine 12:37

So you know, maybe you could kind of talk through, maybe there’s a little bit of the kind of outline of the book. And I guess the other thing is, obviously, what do you hope that people are going to do with with a book because there’s obviously one thing is to is to write something, or to present something. But the other part of it is, you know, what I want people to do with that.

Tutti Taygerly 12:56

You mentioned a little bit ago that I talk a lot about my achievement monster, and almost every person that I coach, and almost every person I talked to when I was working at Facebook, when we got beyond the large meeting sessions, and we sat down for coffee or had a one on one, everyone confessed to feeling imposter syndrome. The sense that I don’t belong here. Everyone else is smarter, better, better than I am. And I I’m a fraud because you know, who am I with my background, my training more or lack thereof to sit here be in this room amongst the other giants. And the reason why I bring those two things together is that we all have these voices. We all have these be self critics. I call it my achievement monster. One of my mentors and teachers Shirzad shameen calls it a saboteur, or a judge, that really tells us these voices that say that we’re, we’re not doing it right. We’re not good enough, we’re messing up we don’t belong. And why talking about the achievement monster is one of the earlier chapters in the book, is what I believe helps is realising that these voices are here. A metaphor I use a lot with clients in tech is we’ve all heard of needing to have mentors and sponsors. Instead, think about in our internal landscape, having a personal board of directors, and on this personal board of directors are all these voices. There may be this achievement monster voice sitting at the table. And at the same time, maybe there are other voices here of leaders that you’ve respected of mentors that you have and every time you’re approaching or facing a choice or a decision. Listen to all those voices hear all of them, but know that the voice of the achievement monster is most likely Lighting. And getting familiar with all these voices, naming them, helps to bring it out into the light a little bit more and help overcome some of that imposter syndrome.

Andy Polaine 15:11

Mm hmm. There’s a book by Steven Pressfield, who wrote a book called The War of Art. And it was, you know, to flip around of the art of war. And he does brilliant thing in this. And he’s talking about writing his writer, and he’s talking about all the things that get in the way of writing and some of the stuff we just talked about. But the brilliant thing he does is he talks about the resistance, as if it’s an external thing that’s just out to get you. And it’s really sneaky. And it can get you in lots of different ways. And the reason why it’s called The War of Art, it’s kind of like how to spot the signs that the resistance is coming to get you and how to protect yourself from it. And of course, you know, it’s an internal thing. But the fact that he externalises, this as this external force, makes it a completely different in terms of the way you can relate to that instead of, oh, I’m lazy, I’m no good, I’m kind of rubbish. It’s actually, this thing’s out to get me and I kind of stopped. It was it’s, it’s really clever. And I think I think that aspect of naming things is incredibly important. And I know what your experience is, is one of the things I’ve found with Kochi sometimes is not only naming their things when you’re talking about some naming your fears and kind of looking at your weaknesses and giving different perspectives on them, but also toxic behaviour from other people. And I don’t mean sort of necessarily going out and combating that and sort of fighting it head on. But sometimes, you can quietly name that to the person who’s doing it. You know, and it could be as simple as you know, it feels like you’re trying to bully me here. You know, what brings you to do that, that kind of completely diffuses and disarms, sometimes not always, but a lot of the time, I think, actually kind of naming the thing that’s going on the dynamic that’s going in between sort of takes its power away. And I’m interested, if you’ve found that at all, with your self or with your coaches. No, absolutely,

Tutti Taygerly 16:57

I’ll tell a different side of the story. Because, as you said, you know, I still am busy, I still struggle with making space to lead. And the story that you talked about naming it saying, oh, you know, that feels a little bit like I’m being bullied. That really resonates with me, because for, for many, many years, as a leader, I was a very intense person, a so called air quotes, difficult person, if you will, because I’m so passionate about about the ideas. And it took multiple brave souls naming it to me, saying that, the way that that you talk about these ideas is like, it’s like a hammer or a bulldozer doesn’t leave space for anyone else to express their opinions. And something like that. horrified me so deeply, because I believe in diversity and inclusion and making sure everyone’s voice is heard. So simply that that act of naming is, sometimes we can’t see these things about ourselves. So I think it’s up to leaders to help hold mirrors up to other people, and name these traits. And in a way that can be really, really scary. Because if you’re saying this to someone who’s very intense and explosive, and saying that hole, I’m feeling bullied, that could blow up in your face. And that can be really, really scary.

Andy Polaine 18:20

Yeah, that’s why I said it sort of in in, you know, about naming it in a fairly sort of quiet and not combative way. Because I think there’s a difference to say, you’re bullying me, you know, and I’m feeling this to saying, it seems like, you know, this is what’s going on here, or, you know, I know, it’s very subtle, and it’s a subtle language shift. I’ve got one little story, I was in a shared sort of studio space that I mistakenly kind of decided to kind of start form a collective with some people who I didn’t know that, well, a couple of people I knew very well. And one of the guys was a little bit immature, he was kind of, but very sort of alpha males. And I’m not really that kind of guy. And this is on Australia, where there’s this quite a dynamic of that going on. I found him kind of terribly difficult. And then at one point, we were having kind of a Rao about, you know, as we were trying to separate the studio and I’ve tried to leave and stuff. And he was just kind of being he was being bullying. And I said, you know, why are you trying to bully me at the moment in this what what do you hope to achieve? And he kind of burst forth he said, Because I’m a man. And I, you know, I just burst out laughing. And it was this this kind of amazing moment where in that moment, I named it his whole kind of going in Union terms of also shadow burst forth and he kind of said the thing that he sort of secretly or unconsciously was, was feeling and it kind of just, it took a complete took away his power, of course, and then I was like, Well, okay, you know, I’ve won this argument now. But it just also for me just completely took away the dynamic and whenever I’ve had that situation, that that’s actually a thing. Bullying is a thing I respond. I wasn’t even really bullied at school, but I respond badly, I think to the unfairness of the sense of powerlessness. I think you know, most people do. Yeah. And I found actually one of the things of kind of naming it in quite a kind of even way really helps and, and I feel like a lot of what you’re talking about in the book is really going inside and naming those things for yourself. And you are simultaneously so reducing the power of some things and increasing the power of the more positive things. And it’s sometimes a bit counterintuitive. Like the thing about well, as you talk about the thing, when you talk about, there’s a really, really nice activity about sort of taking different perspectives on your weaknesses.

Tutti Taygerly 20:32

Can I circle back to your story for a minute, and this is related to shifting perspectives. There’s the naming of your story with the gentleman you shared the space with in the studio with. But the other part is that when you actually name something and get something out of the open, it can be really funny, as you said, you burst out laughing it out in laughter. I mean, some of our most tragic, highly emotional moments are extremely funny. They shouldn’t be, but they are and having something be comic ridiculous, completely outlandish, also breaks the emotion and breaks the tension and allows different perspectives to, to come in. And one of the things that that I’ve done a lot is I’ve been trained in improv, yeah, you talk about that a bit in the book, doing something outlandish saying yes, and in a brainstorm. Yes. And we will bring my pet mouse into this particular design exercise and think about what my pet mouse might do with this concept or whatever else ridiculous thing. And pulling that back to the question you’re asking. laughter, humour outlandish Enos. That’s one way of providing another different perspective. Yeah. And the problem is, we get so stuck into the fact that these are my strengths. And these are my weaknesses. One of one of the women that I was coaching was a very quiet leader. And she was convinced that it held her back. It was, she was given feedback that this was a very outspoken company, she needed to express her opinion more forcefully, she needed to be a certain way, because quietness was not part of the culture of this company. And so for a very, very long time, she knew she absolutely knew and was stuck that this was this was a weakness. And this exercise, you talk about this perspective shifting. I worked on it with her because some of her strengths were very, she was very empathetic, she was beloved by her team, she was very caring and supportive. And she was a slower, more contemplative thinker. Think there’s so many different types of thinking there are people who think very fast on their feet. And these are the people who who win more in meetings, because they have something to say immediately. They may be called the bullies in this in this scenario do because they may dominate the conversation. And in these scenarios, it can feel that slowing down not having an immediate response is not a good thing. This quiet leadership is a weakness. So one exercise is flipping the perspectives. Coming up with as many different possibilities about well, what if, what if being quiet was a strength? What if it was a strength because you can slow down the speed of the conversation and make sure that every person in the room is able to give their perspective? So we don’t mistakenly rush into into a strategy that’s going to blow up in our faces? Yeah, what if being quiet is a strength because you’re going to be able to write your perspective, write your opinion, and send that in a follow up email. Back to the CEO example, what if, if we take a couple of days to do this or a weekend before we make this decision, something else will come up. And a quiet leader may see that opportunity and open up the space for the team to do that. There’s three off the cuff examples of how a perceived weakness could be a strength.

Andy Polaine 24:16

I really liked that story, actually, because I think it’s quite common. I teach. I teach quite a lot. I coach as well. It’s weird. I get it kind of waves of female coaches and male coaches. And I had one point quite a lot of female coaches. And this came up quite a lot for the reasons you’re saying, and particularly in Australia, where instead of pre blokey culture, it’s still a sort of fairly kind of loud blokey culture and there tends to be that kind of dominance of the loud ones, at least in a meeting. And this particular Kochi, I’m thinking of she was very smart, very able, really knew her staff had that thing of when I’m in this room now I get in and people ask me questions and I can’t think of the kind of facts and figures or the stats or whatever it is off the top of my head and I feel kind of frozen and had imposter syndrome, one of the things was to sort of get her to think about who else in the room knows more about design? She was a UX person, you know, then you here in the room? Well, no one. That’s why That’s why you’re there. Right? And but she was constantly had this thing of, I shouldn’t be here. And that kind of helped, first of all, and I had another coachee, though, who had that very thing of, you know, I hate it when people put me on the spot to answer a question, because I really like to think about it. And I’m just not that kind of person. And so we worked on him going, just saying, Can you give me just 10 minutes, I’ll come back to you about that. And sometimes it was, it was longer. And I’ll give you an answer by the end of the day, or something like that. And the brilliant thing was, they did a presentation to this to a client. And the the most senior stakeholder was this woman who’s who said, at the end of the presentation, thanks very much, I really want to have a little think about everything you presented to me today, and I’ll get back to you tomorrow, it was just fantastic for him to see someone very, very senior do that. And I said, how it made you feel, anyone who actually really made me feel like she had heard everything we had been talking about and was taking it seriously, you know, rather than just a kind of glib response, and then walked out the door. So it’s really, really nice to kind of have that moment where he saw someone very senior do exactly what he was kind of afraid of doing. And indeed, you know, the more he did it, and it’s a naming thing again, which is to say, you know, I like to take some time to think about that thing, rather than pretending that he was fine with coming up with an answer. And it really, really helped. I want to ask a question, because you’ve come from a culture, unfortunately, a Facebook’s being kind of is being pulled through the news a lot at the moment. But you know, in general, the tech industry that say, in California, by Silicon Valley, that is heavily kind of, there’s a very, very strong culture of productivity of doing more of it, all the stuff that you kind of push against, or at least a kind of, you know, it’s a sort of rallying cry against quite a lot of that in your book about, you know, we need to make some space. I have a few coaches from that kind of media to who, you know, sometimes say, I feel like everyone else is better than me is going to go fast. But at the same time, then it kind of creeps into the conversation of actually, I know, loads of other people who are really close to burnout, but nobody wants to admit it. What do you think is going on? Where does that come from? You know, in that culture, why is that even there in the first place?

Tutti Taygerly 27:24

So I am really optimistic about Silicon Valley and tech culture. And I think that there is it’s complex. And there’s a paradox there. I think that there is a brilliant, shiny group of dreamers and thinkers who can imagine what a better world would be like with technology. And I think that in itself is a really beautiful thing. That’s the North Star, that’s the vision. That is even if you want to call it the reality distortion field of, of Steve Jobs. And the challenges come in, in the execution of it. Because there is a, I think, a false perception that it’s urgent, we never have enough time. If we don’t get to product market fit before a certain time, we’re gonna run out of money. If we don’t release this new product line out, our competitors are going to get there first. If we’re not first to market, we’re going to lose. And there is very much this the scarcity model of we must run faster, we must burn out we must go as quickly as possible because otherwise someone is going to lose. And I believe that’s part of our part of our culture. It’s part of the VC culture. It’s part of the what happens when you go public and what what we do with with exits. And what’s challenging is that there’s this beautiful thing of being able to imagine and visualise a better future, which is such a sense of of abundance. And then this this like short term fear culture, reward system, which is this performance review system, which happens every three, six months or every year. And it’s those two pushing at each other, which causes this this burnout. The sense of, even though everyone knows, yes, you need to work smarter, not harder. You’re not on a clock. You are not required to work 60 hours a week. There is that fear that unless you do that you won’t be as good as everyone else.

Andy Polaine 29:40

Yeah, the peer pressure is strong isn’t in that idea that there’s you know, there’s only so much pie to go around. Do you think those are structurally resolvable for me those feel like you know, particularly the structural thing you just talked about in the second half of that that feels like those are just destined never to be never to be resolved.

Tutti Taygerly 29:57

So I I think this is a challenging thing to resolve. And this is one of the reasons why I love working with CEOs of smaller companies and startups. Because these are the conversations that we have together. How do we set up a company culture, so that we are performance, we do hit some of these, some of these milestones, we make sure we keep marching towards product market fit, while building a company culture of respect, equality, where we have people do their best work, because they do want people to be their most creative and inspired and working long hours does not help with that.

Andy Polaine 30:44

Do you think to use the parlance of the tech industry, that good intentions, scale?

Tutti Taygerly 30:50

Scaling is hard. Scaling is hard. I mean, having having worked at Facebook, there are many, many good intentions. And the scaling of it is hard, which is why I think how you solve it first, as you solve it within a smaller, more contained, I don’t know 50 To 300 person startup,

Andy Polaine 31:11

your problems scale to write. And so it feels like the in that crazy sort of first bit of a startup where there really isn’t any time and we’re kind of running on a shoestring. And everyone is working stupid hours, which I don’t necessarily think have to do. But, you know, for all the reasons you’ve just said, you know, if you don’t take the time or make space to look at that and deal with that, then when you go into, as you scale, you you having less chance to do it, or you get I was talking to my previous podcast guest about this idea of sort of ethical debt. You know, you kind of end up with this problem. I think you end up with sort of cultural organisational debt, there is way more difficult to to pay off the technical debt. No, absolutely.

Tutti Taygerly 31:53

I think there is the right place for each individual person to be. And so a concept that I talk about a lot is force versus flow. Yeah. And I believe that there are periods in your life where if you are energised, if you are feeling feeling alive, feeling excited and passionate about your work, there are periods of time where you can work very, very long hours. I don’t believe it’s sustainable for months or years. And so it’s really about the rhythms similar to the rhythms of of the ocean and the waves, there’s going to be times in your life where you can work with that intensity because it continues to feel and energise you. And then there’s going to be periods of time where it suddenly feels Oh, this is this is too much. That same number of hours, weekly hours that you standardise you now feel like they’re burnout. Yeah, the hours may be the same, but what shifts is how your energy and excitement about it based on a whole bunch of things, how well the project’s going the relationships between people at work, how long you’ve been doing this. And then that’s the time at a personal level to to shift. And what the message that I wanted to share with this book is that when you get to that stage, it’s okay, to make the space it’s okay to rest, it’s okay to slow down. And that will make you I believe, even more successful, even more energised, do even greater, bigger, more impactful work, if you do take those periods of rest to slow down. So it’s a difference between sometimes you do need to go go go and you’re energised by it. And other times you’re not because you’re not in flow. So that’s a little bit of, I think, the paradox and the self awareness to know when you’re in one versus the other.

Andy Polaine 33:51

I think it’s not only possible, it’s necessary, right? That, you know, if you don’t, you’re actually doing a disservice to the company you’re trying to build or the organisation you’re working in. Because more because you burn out and you end up kind of going down in flames. Absolutely. We’re gonna have to wrap up because we’re coming up to time, but there’s a there’s a great quote from Mike Vance that I sort of wanted to end on in your work, which is slowing down is sometimes the best way to speed up through wires. Yeah. So listen, when’s the book out? It might be out by the time this podcast comes out. Actually,

Tutti Taygerly 34:21

the book comes out on November 2, and will be widely available. There is my website, make space to lead, which will give you lots of information in details.

Andy Polaine 34:33

And I’ll put all the other links of where to find you in the show notes, too. Thanks so much. It’s been lovely to chat. I feel like we could go on for another hour. I will do it again sometime. Good luck with the book launch. I’m sure it’ll have great impact, and I’m sure you’ll get a lot of interest in it. Thanks so much for being my guest.

Tutti Taygerly 34:49

Wonderful. Thank you Andy.

Andy Polaine 34:53

As I’m sure you’re aware, you’ve been listening to Power of Ten. My name is Andy Polaine. You can find me at @apolaine on Twitter, or polaine.com where you can find more episodes and sign up for my newsletter Doctor’s Note. If you like the show, please take a moment to give it a rating on iTunes. It really helps others find us. And as always get in touch. If you have any comments, feedback or suggestions for guests. All the links are in the show notes. Thanks for listening and see you next time.